Dino Stamatopoulos on Comedy & Why He Walked Away from Letterman (& Conan)

Dino Stamatopoulos on Comedy & Why He Walked Away from Letterman (& Conan)

Ashley Rindsberg

Dino Stamatopoulos is the creator of Moral Orel, Mary Shelley’s Frankenhole, and High School USA. He has written comedy for Mr. Show, TV Funhouse, Mad TV, The Dana Carvey Show, Late Show with David Letterman, and Late Night with Conan O’Brien. He is part-founder of Starburn Industries: https://www.starburnsindustries.com

Follow him on social:

Instagram - @dinostamatopoulos

Studio Instagram - @starburnsind

Band Instagram - @sorryabouteverythingsae

His Podacast with Dana Snyder, called "Dino and Dana's Safe Space" can be streamed on all podcast platforms: https://spoti.fi/3FjszjO

Listen to the episode on your favorite podcast site:

Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/336Odu8

Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3qNVebf

Amazon Music: https://amzn.to/3s79IoZ


Ashley Rindsberg: So Dino Stamatopoulos thank you so much for joining us on the Burning Castle podcast it's great to have you here, I like I'm assume many of my listeners that I'm a huge fan of comedy and find it. So vital today, , especially as kind of the walls are closing in, in terms of what we're allowed to talk about allowed to say, not say in comedy feels like one of the last bastions of

Dino Stamatopoulos: more renters in new hollers than website, more listings than anybody else.

See, this is comedy.

Ashley Rindsberg: So, you know what? Fuck it. Let's leave it in. So anyways, let's just jump into, you know, give people a sense of who you are, what you've done. I could, I could give the background, but I feel like it'll be better coming from you.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah. Well, I I started back in Chicago writing comedy. It's obviously a comedy improv. But I didn't really know it at the time when I was a kid, I, I just I was very into you know, Woody Allen and Monte Python in the Marx brothers and probably a product of just being a dopey kid who got bullied a lot. But and then I started I went to Columbia college in Chicago and they had a comedy writing class and a weekly shows. So I would write sketches for that and met Andy Dick there and we formed a two man group and eventually moved to LA where I I got a writing jobs with Ben Stiller shows and then moved to New York and, and was on the first couple of seasons of Conan and did a lot of sketch and talk shows for a while.

And then then created my own animated shows for adult swim and a one on Fox. Yeah. And I've been pretty lucky with you know, just working on shows, a lot of shows that just started I'm I'm kind of spoiled that way. I like starting shows. I don't like going into shows that have been established already.

Ashley Rindsberg: Well, in terms of the latter kind, you did a spell on a SNL.

Dino Stamatopoulos: I didn't really, you know, I have an, I M D B credit for that because Robert Smigel wrote a lot of cartoons and he'd, he'd he'd throw some ideas at me and I'd throw some ideas back at him. And if one of my jokes got in and he gave me a credit. So I, you know, I didn't never showed up to SNL no.

Ashley Rindsberg: But you did do you, you did a character on Community

Pretty hilarious character. If anyone hasn't seen it, it's an awesome show to watch. And Dino's character it's just hilarious to look at that. You just look at the star sideburns, starburns.

So you know, comedy is a, one of these weird things, like a bit like writing, which is what I do, which is often feels like I imagine a thankless job. I mean, in, in writing, it's not, no one's coming out and to hand you trays of money. And you know, maybe in comedy, you get more applause than writing, but I imagine it's, it's not the easiest gig to do too. It's not the easiest choice of career. But you know, people love it and they go into it and they don't leave it. What was it for you that kept you in it and that keeps you in it still today?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Well I mean, I fell into it really. I mean, I've always written you know, I've always written comedy and when it came time to you know, to be honest, when with the Ben Stiller show Andy Dick first got the acting gig on that. And we weren't really getting along that well, it's hard to get along with Andy a lot of the time. And I was resistant in submitting anything, but finally I did, and I had a lot of materials saved up over the years and they ended up liking it, and so I did that. And then after the Ben Stiller show, I was once again, sort of a dabbling with the idea of not going back into comedy and and just maybe, you know traveling a little bit. And but then I read about Conan getting the job and on late night and I got excited about it and I wrote him a bunch of ideas.

And I said, here, you can take these ideas I don't need to be hired. I don't necessarily want to be hired, but you could just take these ideas and, and use them if you want. And they loved the ideas and wanted to hire me. And I said, well, all right, I haven't been to New York yet. That'll be a fun experiment. I think I've just been going with, you know, what the fun was, you know, I I just followed the fun and I've been lucky enough  to be rewarded by doing that.

Ashley Rindsberg: And working for Conan and writing for the show was a fun experience.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was you know, it was the beginning. I was a big Letterman fan and I was a little concerned after he left. Well, who's going to take over for him. And then I read a lot about Conan and I thought, okay, this guy has got a very different sense of humor, but I also like his sense of humor. So it was exciting to go there and be a part of that. And Conan is much funnier guy off camera than he is on camera. I think, I believe that a lot of times he would just come in and stop us from writing and just do bits for us in the.

Ashley Rindsberg: That's amazing. I mean, I've heard, I've heard the stories about Conan being just being this, like preternatural comedic talent, just a crazy level.

And it comes through in his energy. Like even when, when the stuff feels a bit dry, like his presentation is just funny. Like, what he's saying is not necessarily funny, but he's just standing there. There's just a funny energy about it. Yeah. So, so after, after Conan, what came next?

Dino Stamatopoulos: So after Conan, once that got established, I quit because it started being less fun. You know, it was part of the excitement with starting Conan was actually the first show was really exciting. You know, we built up months and months and months and wrote this show and it went pretty well. And then you, you realize, oh, it's every day now for the rest of, until you either quit or the show's canceled.

And the first year, you know, we didn't know, every 13 weeks we could have been canceled. So it was still exciting for me. After a year he pretty much settled in and the network liked him and there was no fear of getting canceled anymore. So when the fear goes away, the fun goes away from me. So I decided to just stop and maybe write something on my own. And then very soon after that I can't remember the order. I might've gone to Letterman Just because I was a huge Letterman fan and they were looking for Conan writers to go on there. And I wasn't that excited because I, you know, the show was an older show and it was already established and I didn't know how much I be able to, to give to that show.

And it turned out not that much really. And so I went to that show and, and stayed for 13 weeks and then decided to move on from that. And then and then I think the Dana Carvey show started after that. And that was very exciting because once again, it was a bunch of great writers and a show that we didn't know what it was yet. And it turned out, we would probably never knew what it was. And it got canceled was very quickly.

Ashley Rindsberg: Yeah. But another great I mean, it's just, his comedy is amazing. And especially, I imagine at that time, when he was sort of like really at the peak of what he was doing, it was just. Yeah. And amazing experience to be with someone like that.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Well, yeah, I, and you know, I was also working with Louis CK and Charlie Kaufman met and Charlie Kaufman there,

Ashley Rindsberg: Was a writer on the show?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, Steven Colbert , Steve Carell.

Ashley Rindsberg: All the writers so that when they were performing as well?

Dino Stamatopoulos: They were a writer , performers, those guys. And then Robert Speigel of course. And so it was a crazy group of people

Ashley Rindsberg: So that, you know, that, that kind of That really makes me want to understand. And I think people as well, one understand what's like, you know, what does it really mean? People hear the word writer for, for these big shows. And this is really a disconnect with what the, what that day-to-day feels like. You know, we imagine like we all, we know what it's like to, for us to go to a job, but I imagine it's a really different thing than that hours and energy and what you're actually doing. Can you just give us like a little glimpse into that, into that world?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah and once again, I was very lucky because I was, I was going into shows where the writers were given a lot of freedom and a lot of respect, and they got to oversee their own sketches and almost direct them and go and direct them and be there. But you know, first it was like just a general. Meeting of what the show is that's what a show first starts. And then we just throw around ideas and there's no bad thing you could say, just throw in any idea and what's funny sticks. And another reason I was very lucky. Is it usually anything that was funny, got into a show, especially like on a show like Mr. Show anything that made us laugh. We had to, we figured out how to. Actually make a sketch and out of it and put it on TV. Well, yeah, you start out with general ideas and, you know, whoever the head writer is, if he likes an idea, he'll say, go ahead and write that or you two guys go write it. And then we go write it and bring it back and read it at a, a read through or the head writer will read it out. And so. And make changes there, or we'll have a room where we all sit around and punch it up. Something like that.

Ashley Rindsberg: So those moments where you decided to, to start doing a show you know, that's, that's another thing that I think people love to understand how that works because you're in a show that's doing well, like Conan's or Letterman. And you're saying. I'm sure there's the money was probably decent and there's a level of stability and, you know, there's sort of a career track, a sort of a trajectory there and to say, you know what, this is not really doing it for me. I'm just going to walk like. How, how does that work for you on almost an emotional level to say, I'm going to take this risk just because it's not working out for me personally.

I think a lot of people would just say, you know what, I'm going to put that feeling away and just stick it out because it's kind of on paper looking good.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Well, you know, it's just the kind of person I've always been. I've always quit a job before I had another one lined up. I don't think it's that admirable, you know, it's mostly, I'm a big baby and I'm like, I don't, I'm bored, you know, and even with my own shows that I started, you know, I've had a network pickup, my show, and by third season I've completely changed it and to their chagrin and they, they cancel it, you know?

I get bored easy, and, and I, you know, I, I also, don't like, I'm not attracted to stability in any kind of way more so in my old age now, but still I would not take a job on a writing staff. I don't know, already established show, even if I needed. I think I'd be losing a little there, but

Ashley Rindsberg: that, you know, that's still, there's, there's something about it.

That's almost in a backhand way. It's an, I wouldn't say responsible, but it's like, you're willing to accept the cost of what that means to walk.

Dino Stamatopoulos: And I also, you know, A more admirable thing about it, you know you know, I'm not completely humble is that I know I'm not going to do the show any good by staying there. You know actually, it's not even on my IMBD. I was on the Jimmy Kimmel show for maybe a month and did not gel with what the show was. And. You know, pretty much asked to leave early, you know, was, I, I just didn't feel like I was contributing anything. Right.

Ashley Rindsberg: Just to zoom out a bit and to look at comedy today. And because it's in such a weird place, and maybe it's always sort of like this, or maybe people just pushing boundaries in a way that ways that they haven't before. But you know, when you look at what's happened with Luis CK, what's going on with Dave Chappelle right now? Sarah, Sarah Silverman's show being canceled. Almost we could just go on and on about with these different examples. It's a really strange thing. Cause we're like negotiating the boundaries of comedy politically today, especially with Chappelle right now. I mean, this is like breaking every single day. What can he say? Can't say, what should he have said, should he apologize? Can he go to, you know, the Netflix, people are walking out the office, like what, where, what does this mean to you as a comedian comedy writer that we're place where politics has infected comedy. Do you think it's just always been this way and we've, we were just more polite about it or is this actually a new thing that we're seeing in the world?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Well, I definitely think social media has allowed to do is that there's a lot more power and voices in social media and it's, it's scaring a lot of the networks and the big companies. So it's not just people who are. Who get to say, well, I, if I don't like that comedy, I'm just not going to watch it. It's I don't like that comedy. I'm going to get that guy fired, you know, which is a, it's a different thing than it has been. Of course it has happened with it's happening now with the left more, but it was happening before social media with the right and you know, in censorship and you know, the idea that if someone was offensive on TV or radio, like Howard stern, the advertisers would pull out. So that was a cancel culture, if you want to use that word too. So I guess it has always been happening, but not as much with the liberal side. Right. You know? And that's fascinating and I've been thinking a lot about it lately. You know, I saw Chappell's Show and you know, I was offended that it wasn't funny at all. I didn't smile, but a little laugh, you know, I think he was just doing a Ted talk and I'm like, okay, we'll call it comedy. Don't call it your comedy show. And I'm not, obviously I'm not as sensitive about the trans sexual issue because I'm not. And so I didn't see anything that offensive, but I'm not, I'm not safe it's offensive or not really, you know? And you know, I've been watching a lot of like old interviews. So I went with George Carlin and he was talking about Andrew Dice Clay and basically the idea of the new term is punching down now, but going after the underdog. And I do, I do agree that Andrew Dice Clay you know, make fun of women and gays a lot.

And you know, and Chappelle is doing that too. He's also black and also, you know, a minority and that had a lot to do with his last Ted talk as I like to call it. And that was his big issue that I no, I'm in a, in a, in a minority that's more downtrodden than yours. I look, I, I can't have an opinion of, you know, because I'm, I'm a straight white.

Ashley Rindsberg: Straight enough right. Enough to get around. Yeah, I think that's, I think that with Chappelle, I think that's a lot of the point is like, you know, that was polemics. What he was doing in that show is really for what it was it was good. He was making his point again and again and again and again, and he was like driving it home. But at some point it just, it becomes tiring, you know, as an audience member, you're just like, all right, man, just kind of a. Let's lighten the mood here a little bit and stay, you know, I, I feel like it's this gotta be a bit of a dance with the politics and touching the hot button issues, which comedians tend to not shy away from, but when you just dive into that stuff and that's all it becomes, it becomes heavy handed and it feels like that's where Chappelle is going.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah. It's very heavy. I mean, it feels funny and there'd be a, that'd be a different story. Maybe he can make an argument, which was, I'm just being funny, funny, you know?

Ashley Rindsberg: Right, right. And that's what I was, that's kinda what I was saying to a friend today. It's kind of like Chappelle seems to want to have it both ways. And that seems to be the problem. It's like be funny, be offensive. Great. And everyone's happy or go and lecture, lecture your audience. Do that just choose,

Dino Stamatopoulos: but he has an arrogance now. That's not a, it's not conducive to comedy.

Ashley Rindsberg: W what, you know, that's an interesting point, actually. Why, why is arrogance not conducive to comedy? And why, why do you feel like that? That's the case?

Dino Stamatopoulos: I feel like a lot of humor is, you know, based on making fun of arrogance, you know, and It's he's become what the straight man, you know, someone that you want to make fun of more than, you know, he's not making fun of himself. He's an arrogant guy making fun of, you know, I don't like the term punching down, but I guess it applies, you know he, he is going after the underdog and to him, everyone's the underdog because he's calling himself, you know, the greatest ever.

Ashley Rindsberg: Right. The greatest ever. We write what she actually says on the show. He calls himself the goat and also he's also really driving home the idea that he's a victim the world's biggest victim, you know, the guy who had, had to walk away from $50 million. He had no choice.

Dino Stamatopoulos: The GOAT can't be the victim,. Right.

Ashley Rindsberg: And that's that classic model of this drama triangle, where they're, you know, you're casting everyone in these roles of villain, victim, and hero, and you are sort of shuffling between these different roles yourself, as you know, the hero of comedy, the victim of society, the villain of all these other people are blaming other people's the villain who were victimized. It just becomes a bit of a mess. But you know, who, who do you look back at when you look at the history, even present a comedy of people who really managed to, to have that, to have that dance and to keep the dance going in a way that was funny and light and still relevant.

Are there standouts for you?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, I mean, right, right now it's almost cliche to talk about Norm MacDonald, but I feel like, you know, he's a he was a fairly conservative guy, but it was never offensive. You know, he always tried to look at the issue and make it funny. And that was his main, main goal was to be funny, you know, and you know, Richard Pryor, I feel. I've always done it. You know, George Carlin definitely had moments where he got a little preachy, but it was, it was preachiness that I agreed with at the time, you know? And, you know, I have to say that you know, he's a friend of mine and still is Louis CK is, is doing some great comedy, which is about now and about these very issues and I think he has some solid points.

Ashley Rindsberg: Yeah. I mean, he's, he's awesome. And he was just one of, one of the greatest it's still is I think, even though he's, he, you know, it's changed for him and what, what he's doing, how he's doing it has changed, but you know, that also kind of brings up the question of like, you've got this real mainstream of comedy that's coming out through the big media and Netflix and HBO people getting their specials and stuff. And then when that is no longer an option, like, like it sort of has been for Louis C K. Where do people go and what do they do? And like, how do, how do you, what is the independent media equivalent of comedy today?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Well, you know, the internet, Louie has his own website. Does it there? I think he's supporting other people who are, are also going through similar things. I think if you're a stand up you have a leg up on all of that, because you're all if you're a good standup, you're, you're always going to get work. And you're always going to be able to have a job in terms of like a writer like me you know and, and actors, you know, to it's, it's harder. If you get a. If you get canceled in that way, you know? Yeah, I don't, I don't know what the answer would be.

Ashley Rindsberg: So, you know, when you're looking at what's going on in comedy today, especially with the younger people, younger comedians and writers You know, what are you seeing? Like, what are you seeing is, is, are the trends that are, are interesting, that are encouraging or discouraging? Do you feel like there is something new emerging out of all the political chaos and social chaos in the U S and around the world today? Or is it just kind of repackaging things that are, that have always been kind of the same and just giving you the, a different a different vehicle?

Dino Stamatopoulos: Think a lot of younger comedians are, aren't agreeing with a lot of the direction that social media and society is trying to push comedy in. And, and I think they're figuring out different ways of being. And, and it's definitely, you know, I mean, I think, I think it's, I think ultimately it's good what's happening because you know, we're not going to just rely on shock humor, you know? And the rules have always been. Good for comedy because you have to be more creative and work your way around them for any art, really, you know, once Howard stern went from dressed real radio to, you know, whatever he's on now. And he has all that freedom. I lost interest in him. You know, I liked his way of getting around the rules of central. Right,

Ashley Rindsberg: right. It gives it that it gives it the edge. Like if you're not, if you're not going up against something who cares, if it's sort of good job for you.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, he is. He's not the once again, he's not the underdog anymore.

Ashley Rindsberg: Right. So what are you doing now? What are you working on? Where where's your mind in terms of your own, your own work and writing and comedy?

Dino Stamatopoulos: In terms of comedy, I'm writing a a pilot for Fox it's an animated show. It's just in its writing stage, so it's not picked up yet. And so it's an interesting process because this is Fox it's a network I've, I've never had much success on my own writing for a network, you know, for my own show. So it's an interesting process, we'll see if it works out. And you know just my pure comedy sense comes out more in, you know, I do a podcast. With a, with a bunch of friends and hardly anyone listens to it, which is comforting to me. And I get to do whatever I want and get the, you know, and feel like I have the freedom to say whatever I want and just have fun. And I think you know, in contrast to what I was saying before with the idea of censorship, Just having a freedom and not being afraid definitely lends itself to comedy.

So but other than that, you know, artistically I have a band and I'm writing songs and recording them and you know, I'm not a very good singer and I'm an okay guitarist, but it it's, it's a passion of mine right now. And I think a lot of the songs have a little humor. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Rindsberg: Very cool. Well, like I was saying, you know, it feels like a very interesting time for comedy, not just because of the politics, but also because comedy feels to really have become central to the culture. I mean, I think of some, even like really dramatic TV series that are out there today, like billions more succession. And I know, you know, billions. At least from a Brian Koppelman standpoint, he's a, he's a huge comedy fan, huge SNL fan. And you see it, you see the comedy come out in these heavy drama series. You see that they're even willing to go to like, get a little slapsticky in these moments. In both those shows I mentioned, which is really kind of different and pretty cool, actually that they're letting the show breathe in that way and be, and like suddenly bursting into the just absolutely pure comedy, some of it just physical comedy. And I think that's kind of a product of comedy taking center stage in the culture and becoming so important in a way that I've never seen it before in my lifetime as an adult, it was always something that was there obviously, but now it really feels like we are negotiating public life, partly through comedy.

Dino Stamatopoulos: That's interesting yeah. I haven't, I haven't seen those shows. I don't really want a lot of TV series of any kind, but I'm interested in what you're saying is the comedy, something that comes out of character. Does it make sense or does it seem like it's coming out of nowhere and is almost.

Ashley Rindsberg: Definitely in succession, it's a hundred percent character driven. I mean, the characters are there in this absurd world of wealth and power and they have, you know, back to our earlier point about new rules. They have no rules. There's no one there there's, they're so powerful and wealthy, but. Say and act however they want. And you see what happens when people are living like that. It's, it's insane. And, and it works like it's like you could see how people living like that would actually act and behave in these ways. And it's, it's funny.

Dino Stamatopoulos: That's good to hear, you know, cause I think it's very important to keep the integrity of the character and the situation, you know, that's, what's the funniest, you know, to me, I I've recently you know, I, I watched Curb Your Enthusiasm when it first came out and I, and I kind of lost interest. And then I gained interest again recently watching it on YouTube. And I realized why, because the character and the moments are amazing, you know, and it's what you're talking about. It's a, it's a guy with so much power. They can do whatever he wants basically. But when I, then I go, okay, I want to watch this whole episode instead of the scenes on YouTube. And I'd watch the whole episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. And they almost got surreal in a way that I couldn't believe, you know, like all these situations would dove tail together in unbelievable ways. And I felt like the whole was lesser than the parts and I am. So I just went back to watching just the bits on YouTube.

Ashley Rindsberg: Yeah. You know, I actually went back to watch the very, I think it was, I think it was the first episode. I'm not sure if it was really one of the first few and Bob Odenkirk was on the show and playing this, playing a porn star and it was so raunchy. I couldn't believe I was watching the same show that we see today. It was like the guy just really Larry David obviously just ends up writers, took the gloves off in that episode. You're just like, whoa, is this the Seinfeld crater that I'm, that I'm familiar with? And then it changed and then it really became a lot more what we see today, which, you know, maybe it's a natural thing, but that moment was like, I was a bit shocked. Yeah.

Dino Stamatopoulos: It really has. It's got the structure of the sitcom, you know, but appealof a classic of Eddie's movie, almost something.

Ashley Rindsberg: Right. So any other thoughts, parting thoughts first about comedy, about, about writing? You know, I think, I think something that people think about a lot. Yeah. With regard to comedy, writing, TV writing, film writing, and any creative endeavor in general is how to start. And I think that's what people do, sort of, they look at this thing, they're just like this it's impossible. Like I'll never be able to do that. It's a dream. I'd love it. It's a fantasy. And what gets them caught up is just the first step. The first move. The first success.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, I guess it's, don't think about success think about what you love doing and do it and surround yourself by people who love doing similar things and work with them and you'll help each other in just doing it. And also once jobs start coming up, you know, that's what happened to me. You know, it was like, I, I built a network of people without even thinking about what a network of people. Right. Would that would give me jobs where it just happened naturally because I loved doing it and I had a passion for it. And I just followed that passion.

Ashley Rindsberg: That's something that Brian Eno talked about, where he'd caught. He coined the term sceneus like the genius of being in a scene because you have the energy, you have the relationships and the, those compound, like it's not, it's not, one-to-one like you, you have two relationships. It's like having, like what they say about STDs. It's like, you're not sleeping with two people. You're living in a 20, it's the same thing I think with, with making progress in any field, but especially in the arts and any kind of creative endeavor, because it really depends on that ability to collaborate and that ability to have all boats rise. And I think that's a really important thing.

And I think the other thing that's really important there is that the hardest suffering for a lot of people in creative endeavors is feeling alone as feeling that nobody cares. No one's ever going to give a shit. This is pointless. And they end up hating themselves on account of it. And if you can, like you, you, you make the problem into its a salute to its own solution by working with others, by collaborating, by creating a community of your own kind.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Definitely, definitely. You know, if I could take his enos term and alter it, I'd say gleaning is you following your glee, you know? Right, right. I had to think of a E sound.

Ashley Rindsberg: So believe it was good and go buy that URL after the.

Dino Stamatopoulos: Got them all now,

Ashley Rindsberg: So I wanted to thank you for taking the time as has been really interesting. And I, you know, I think, again, I think this is just something that people are just naturally drawn to comedy in and of itself, but I think drawn to the question of comedy, especially as we're seeing it today. So this is great to hear from somebody like you, who's been in the business for as long as you have done what you've done.

So thank you. And you know, any parting thoughts? A great question. I like to ask people a guests is what you're reading, if anything,

Dino Stamatopoulos: Yeah, I'm not actually reading anything right now though. The last thing I read was that I really enjoy. Was Lincoln in the Bardo. And it's just a beautiful story. If you get a chance. I have you read it.

Ashley Rindsberg: I have not read it. I have read Centers of Stories. He came over here that really famous collection of stories. That was that just bonkers. But I will check it out. I've heard it's an incredible book and he's an amazing writer of course,

Dino Stamatopoulos: it's very heartbreaking and funny at the same time. And. Yeah, I think it's all. And it's almost like reading a script, you know?

Ashley Rindsberg: Very cool. Yeah. So do you know Dino Stamatopoulos , thank you so much for joining us on the Burning Castle Podcast where can people find you if they want to like look you up and, or possibly engage with what you're doing, where should.

Dino Stamatopoulos: It's tough. You got to first learn how to spell my name and then look for me on the, you know, Instagram or something. That's yeah. I don't even know how to get onto my podcast and I don't promote it.

Ashley Rindsberg: We'll do some research on our end we'll dig out the podcast, wherever it might be and we'll link to it.

Yeah. Unless you don't want us to.

Dino Stamatopoulos: I don't really care. Do whatever you want. Thanks Ashley.

Thank you, Dino

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